Why is it so stressful? In grad school, the work is not only hard (see Reason 9), but it rests entirely on your shoulders and is constantly subject to the judgment and subjective standards of others. You perform it with little immediate reward and no certainty of any future reward (see Reason 8). And you do so in a competitive environment populated by people who are just as stressed as you are (see Reason 50). You have little money and perhaps a great deal of debt, and even though you are free to walk away, there is a price to pay for leaving (see Reason 11). It takes longer to complete than you expect (see Reason 4), and while you spend so much time on things that really do not matter, your life options dwindle as your investment in the great academic job-market gamble increases (see Reason 29). Rather than giving you an increasing sense of confidence, every passing year of graduate school can be more stressful than the one before it.
Ideally, you should do something that does matter. But really most people are doing things that don't matter so much really whether they get done or not but matter very much to them if they lose their job or their business fails. So it is pretty much the same in grad school. You have reason to be stressed because unless you do well you are facing failure in this career path.
ReplyDeleteI think though that with academia, at least for me in biosciences, is that many of you came into it precisely because you wanted to do something that mattered? The reality of this not being possible, or even desirable to exam boards and supervisors, is the most stressful thing I've found.
Delete@ moom:
ReplyDeleteThe point is that you are facing almost certain failure in this 'career path' even when you do well. Even if you are a star (see reason 67). Pursuing an academic career is truly a fool's errand. Reason 68 sums it all up quite nicely for me. Years and years of stress (and truth be told, I did very well), with no payoff. None.
When I was in graduate school, our adviser would wryly chide the research group from time to time by stating that "graduate school is the most carefree part of your career".
ReplyDeleteWe all thought that this (somewhat) amusing remark was his (indirect, plausibly deniable) way of acknowledging to us that he understood how we felt.
Twenty years on, I can now see that he was telling us the truth. These days, I would kill for the carefree days of my youth where my biggest daily worry in life was how well my (meaningless, non earth-shattering, taxpayer-funded) research experiment was going to go on that particular day.
Living the life of a grant-subsidized "welfare queen in a white lab coat" was pretty blissful from a financial point of view. These days, I have many more cares and burdens, and I have to spend my time doing something that is actually worthwhile.
"Rather than giving you an increasing sense of confidence, every passing year of graduate school can be more stressful than the one before it."
ReplyDeleteSo true. So, so true. Take it from an 8th year, it doesn't get better.
Dear STEM folks:
ReplyDeletePlease take another look at the purpose of this blog, as laid out by the blogger:
"This blog is an attempt to offer those considering graduate school some good reasons to do something else. Its focus is on the HUMANITIES and SOCIAL SCIENCES (emphasis mine)."
Maybe if you think that the blogger hasn't offered good reasons not to go to grad school (as mOOm implies in the comments section of 67), or that these reasons don't describe the STEM situation particularly well, you should consider commenting on a blog that has a STEM audience in mind? Just how fast would you chomp my non-STEM ass if I visited a blog aimed at STEM folks and posted comments suggesting that the blogger's arguments weren't sound because they didn't apply to humanities or social science students?
STEM Doctor, I'm not particularly clear what the point of your post is. Are you contrasting your relatively "carefree" days in the lab with a career inside or outside of academia? Does the fact that you now think your lab time was a breeze somehow negate what you and your lab-mates felt back then, or what many of us are experiencing now? Many of us aren't working under the conditions you describe (lab, funding, youth unencumbered by non-school-related responsibilities).
Dear STEM responder:
ReplyDeleteThe reasons (and many of the responses) presented in this blog also apply to the situation for MANY graduate students and PhDs in the sciences (biology, in my case). It's all the same.
I think this is hard to appreciate for anyone who hasn't been to graduate school.
ReplyDeleteI will say this - I have been deployed to Baghdad and it was less stressful than graduate school. I'm not kidding.
It's like some kind of psychological experiment to see how much insanity you can actually stand. Seriously - talk to grad students and you'll find that 95% of them are either taking anxiety or depression medication, or have developed inappropriate coping mechanisms like eating disorders, sleeping with inappropriate people, alcoholism, etc. It's not normal.
And these other maladjusted people will be the entirety of your support network, which means you will lose any sense of what normal looks like anymore.
Amen.
Delete"I will say this - I have been deployed to Baghdad and it was less stressful than graduate school. I'm not kidding. "
Deletethe fact anyone would make this statements not only frightens me up sums up the whole of the academic world.
Thank you for saying it!
Delete"Dear STEM responder:
ReplyDeleteThe reasons (and many of the responses) presented in this blog also apply to the situation for MANY graduate students and PhDs in the sciences (biology, in my case). It's all the same."
I'm glad to hear that. Well, actually, no--it would be nice if there was less, not more misery.
What I'm responding to is a theme woven throughout the comments sections on this blog going way back. A subset of STEM folks (clearly not all) comment that "Reason #X isn't a valid reason," and then go on to explicitly state or implicitly suggest that the reason is invalid because it doesn't apply to STEM folks. I'm pointing out that if you as a STEM person feel that a particular Reason (or most of the Reasons on the blog) doesn't apply to you, since you are not the intended audience for whom the blog is designed all you have achieved by posting your disagreement is confessing to a deficiency in reading comprehension.
Anon 7:04, while STEM Doctor is not giving us an anecdote that supports this Reason, s/he is saying that it doesn't get better afterwards, or at least it didn't for hir. Good for those looking to see whether grad school, in the end, is worth it (as for many it won't be).
ReplyDeleteThis is painfully true. I can't count all the stressful episodes I've had during my grad school career because there are just too many to remember. I'm nearing the end of my PhD now, and I've come to terms with the fact that academia's not for me and that I'm much happier with my non-academic day job. Discovering this has really reduced my stress. But, now that I've got to work with my committee again this semester and do revisions and newer drafts etc. in order to graduate, all that stress from before is coming back to me. The upshot is that it's made me feel 100% confident in my decision to leave academia, but the stress still sucks! I feel for anyone else going through the academic stress cycle at the moment.
ReplyDeleteI, too, would like to come to the defense of STEM Doctor. As a mathematician, I'm certainly part of the STEM (indeed, the "M" in STEM), but mathematics is this weird discipline that is quasi-humanities, quasi-science. Thus, some of these points don't quite match up with my experiences, but others match up amazingly well.
ReplyDeleteBut, do you know what? Apart from the job market for humanities, the same can be said for individual departments, and even individual people. For example, apart from discovering I strongly dislike teaching (which was a source of a LOT of stress for me!) I didn't consider my time in graduate school stressful. I enjoyed the prelims and the dissertation and so forth. I can't say the same for my colleagues, one way or the other, because I'm not all that great at observing other people.
Come to think of it, there's a second source of stress that I didn't like as well: the conflict I experienced, when I needed to study for my own tests, but I needed to grade tests for another professor at the same time...so I had virtually no time to study for my own test!
Even so, I consider this an IMPORTANT point: you need to be aware of the stress that gets put on you when you need to publish, and do homework, and to teach, and to grade, often all at the same time.
And the fact that STEM Doctor says "This is practically stress-free compared to life AFTER grad school" should give everyone looking at an academic career GREAT reason to pause.
"And the fact that STEM Doctor says "This is practically stress-free compared to life AFTER grad school" should give everyone looking at an academic career GREAT reason to pause."
ReplyDeletePerhaps. Depends on if STEM Doc is now working in academia, or outside of it. This may have been established in an earlier post, but isn't clear here.
"Anon 7:04, while STEM Doctor is not giving us an anecdote that supports this Reason, s/he is saying that it doesn't get better afterwards, or at least it didn't for hir. Good for those looking to see whether grad school, in the end, is worth it (as for many it won't be)."
Again, perhaps everyone but me recalls (from previous posts) what STEM Dr is up to these days. But we don't know from this comment alone. Who knows, maybe it's a caution against the rigors of the real world, or growing older in general. Clearly not all grad students are young, but many are. As an older grad student, I can tell ya that I've got a lot of worries which are unrelated to my research results, like, "How am I going to take care of my elderly parent, since my siblings don't give a shit?" or, "What happens to our monthly mortgage if my partner gets laid off again?" These aren't things that most grad students have to worry about either. Most I know can't/won't even take care of a pet without fobbing it off on someone else.
If you wanna know what I'm talking about with regards to obnoxious STEM comments, look at mOOm's comment towards the end of Reason 67.
I'D LIKE TO ADD THAT FOLKS WHO GRADUATED EVEN A FEW YEARS AGO MAY HAVE VERY LITTLE INSIGHT INTO THE PRESSURES PRESENT IN CONTEMPORARY GRADUATE PROGRAMS, GIVEN THE CONSTRAINTS IMPOSED BY THE ECONOMY CRASH AND TIGHTENING ACADEMIC JOB MARKET. IF YOU GRADUATED YEARS AGO, YOUR COUNTERARGUMENTS THAT GRAD SCHOOL "ISN'T THAT BAD" REALLY DON'T MERIT MUCH CONSIDERATION.
everyone knows. Grad school is only used for riding out the economic crisis, to fill resume gaps. Once it is out and booming again I don't need to be in school anymore.
ReplyDelete-From a STEM master's degree graduate
Let me clarify a few points.
ReplyDelete1) I did a STEM degree at a first tier R&D university where everyone was "expected" to go into academia. In this regard my STEM experience was similar to the expectations placed on graduate students in the humanities. I did the academic thing for a while, got promoted to Associate Professor, got sick of the academic grind, and now enjoy a much more rewarding (and stressful) career in industry.
2) There were moments of intense frustration and stress during my graduate school experience. This is the same for STEM and non-STEM graduate students. Subject matter different, but academic BS is the same across the entire enterprise.
3) My adviser was indirectly acknowledging this stress with his humorous remarks. But he was also quite correct in pointing out to members of the research group that our happy little grant-funded graduate student existence was not nearly as stressful as "real life" was going to be at a later date. This is the same in both STEM and non-STEM career paths. (Note: the typical STEM graduate student is in early 20's, no kids, no spouse, no non-academic duties, and enjoys a pretty much guaranteed stipend for either teaching or research during first 5 years of study...I feel for anyone in graduate school who is trying to get a PhD while juggling any of these non-academic distractions).
4) The fact that this blog is for folks in the humanities is duly noted. But, much of what you humanities folks endure very much resonates with experiences of STEM graduate students. If you wish to shut down views from outside the clique, I'll be happy to shut up and just passively read this very interesting blog.
5) To Anon at 11:05 AM - you are quite right that things may be much worse now than they were when I went to graduate school (both STEM and non-STEM). I wouldn't know. But, I do care.
Hi STEM Dr.
ReplyDeleteReplies to your above post:
1. Job in industry--as I suspected. Good for you. I don't know why some folks on this website automatically assume graduates talking about life after grad school have academic positions. It seems like the reverse would be more likely.
3. Thanks for the acknowledgement for all the non-trads and caregivers who are pursuing degrees. Lord knows we don't get any acknowledgement from our departments (other than "Hurry up, you!").
4. The blog is geared towards humanities AND SOCIAL SCIENCE folks. I don't think anyone here wants to shut out STEM folks. But the type of comments which belittle the blogger's reasons because they don't apply to STEM folks (again, when they're not designed to do so) or which minimize the difficulties of grad school are annoying. I could really go for a very long time without needing to read about how life in a funded lab is carefree, or Commenter X thinks we're all a bunch of lazy whiners because s/he was able to get through in 3.5 years by buckling down in the lab. I'm not saying you've made these statements, but reading back through comments on previous posts, this theme emerges amongst some STEM posts. It's unkind, oafish, and obnoxious.
5. I'm 11:05. One of my former mentors graduated from a top R1 so many years ago that his diploma (and those of his colleagues) was accompanied by a job offer--his first academic position was actually arranged by the department (well, for the men at least. Most female grad students were bounced after the MA). This person hasn't even published in years and still thinks he has something intelligent to say about today's job market. But even in the five years I've been in grad school, things have changed radically in terms of funding and climate within our program--there's much less flexibility in a number of areas. So when I hear folks who graduated years ago opining that any aspect of the job market or grad experience ain't that bad, it kinda chafes.
I, for one, am probably here for the same reason many of the Humanities and Social Science folk are: I became disillusioned with Academia, and am happy to see a blog that resonates with me so much. I am one who finished my Doctorate, but wonder to this day if I should have gotten out when I got my Master's. The ONLY reason why I'm glad I finished is that I got to learn more mathematics.
ReplyDeleteOh, how I wished I started Graduate School with more plans than "I'll just finish my degree and become a professor"!
It's silly to complain that STEM people provide a different perspective--for anyone interested in grad school, regardless the discipline, it is useful to compare and contrast reasons for going. Have we forgotten the bitter debate between those who wanted to have children, and those who didn't, a few posts ago? The reason about how attending grad school is going to affect when you can have children? Yes, such a reason is meaningless to someone who chooses not to have children--but it's a VERY IMPORTANT reason for those who are interested in them!
And thus it is with STEM folk: some of these reasons don't always apply to us, but some of them apply in spades.
To say that all jobs are stressful, therefore they are equally or similarly stressful is not very strong logic. The life of an academic, grad student or otherwise, is completely dominated by their job. There is no end of the workday: you will be dreaming of papers at night, thinking of teaching in the shower, attending meetings when you're not teaching and writing when you're not attending meetings and teaching. Yes, other professions require a lot of time, but at least with those jobs there is time to go home and relax without your job crowding itself back into your life whether you want it to or not. Some people choose to carry out their working life like this; academics must.
ReplyDeleteAcademics take papers to grade on vacation; they bring work on visits home for the holidays and become seemingly irrationally upset when they can't find time or a good space to write at their parents house; a shocking number of them are on hardcore anti-depressants. I've seen all this enough times to feel comfortable generalizing about it. If you haven't lived like this (and there's a lot more where that came from) you don't really know what kind of stress this is.
There are some people who are very happy doing this. They accept the level of stress; some of them may even feed off of it. They tend to be less concerned with things like relationships, having kids, knowing where they'll be in a few years, and generally putting off their entire life until they're into their late thirties. These are the people who should be in grad school because they will not give up. They will get the job. Unless you are that person, I'd say there's no shame in giving up if you don't want to live that way. I know (after a lot of deliberation) that I don't.
And as for the meaninglessness of the work: to say that "well, you should just work on something meaningful!" is ridiculous. In English, what's meaningful is teaching and that's just not something that is valued when it comes to hiring lit profs. So as much as you like to teach, you have to suppress that aspect of your career until you have tenure and bore into whatever specialization you could find a gap in to write articles about. You come for the literature, you stay for the grueling process of pumping out articles and books (that are incredibly difficult to write) that, unless you are drunk on the koolaid, pretty clearly don't "contribute to our knowledge." It's not a funtime barrel of monkeys.
A couple thoughts on Anonymous 10:04's comment:
ReplyDelete@ "To say that all jobs are stressful, therefore they are equally or similarly stressful is not very strong logic. The life of an academic, grad student or otherwise, is completely dominated by their job."
Actually, working at a think tank, as I currently do, has some similarities to academic life. Not for me particularly (I'm just the secretary) but for my boss, whose life is nonstop work, even on vacation. The difference is that my boss (who seriously considered going for a Ph.D. in a humanities field but wisely thought better of it) earns $160K a year. That's generally how it is outside academe -- there are plenty of high-stress jobs, but compensation more often reflects the level of stress (among other things).
@ "They tend to be less concerned with things like relationships, having kids, knowing where they'll be in a few years, and generally putting off their entire life until they're into their late thirties. These are the people who should be in grad school because they will not give up. They will get the job."
Not true. There simply aren't enough jobs these days, even for the smaller group-within-a-group you're describing. It doesn't matter how motivated, how driven, how hard-working, or how much of a skull-busting genius you are.
Tenure-track jobs (and even permanent, renewable contract positions) are increasingly being replaced by contingent ones. As you said, "what's meaningful is teaching and that's just not something that is valued when it comes to hiring lit profs." Exactly, but what's happening isn't that more research-oriented people are getting hired. Rather, there's simply less and less hiring of anyone except grossly underpaid adjuncts.
And being a permanent adjunct -- as a grad student and beyond -- is plenty damned stressful for anyone, regardless what their other life goals are.
"Academics take papers to grade on vacation; they bring work on visits home for the holidays and become seemingly irrationally upset when they can't find time or a good space to write at their parents house."
ReplyDeleteI have done this. I won't do it any more.
If you're bringing work along as a way to dodge spending time with annoying relatives over the holidays, sure. If you're doing something truly important (on the verge of a medical breakthrough, researching EBT for a difficult psychotherapy patient, working on a landmark law case, polishing your pitch for the network, etc.), fine, but I hope your loved ones understand. They may not if it becomes a habit.
But if you are sacrificing your time with loved ones or vacation time to reply to asinine student emails, or grading student papers (writing comments they'll never read, correcting mistakes they'll never stop making), you really need to realize that you are literally wasting your life. I did, and I'm not going to do it any more.
As an undergraduate I have to comment on this. Let's say I have taken an exam right before a holiday (I am STEM and don't have to write papers except very rarely). I will be checking online everyday to see what my grade is. BUT....
DeletePlease don't sacrifice time with your loved ones to grade it. We will not shrivel up and die if you spend time with your loved ones and grade it later.
"But if you are sacrificing your time with loved ones or vacation time to reply to asinine student emails, or grading student papers (writing comments they'll never read, correcting mistakes they'll never stop making), you really need to realize that you are literally wasting your life. I did, and I'm not going to do it any more."
ReplyDeleteToo true. I once graded papers in the shower stall of am Amtrak bathroom on a beautiful train ride through Montana - the bathroom was the only quiet place I could find, as I was traveling with my loud and crazy family. I missed it all: the mountains, the lakes, the beautiful plains. I also missed time with my brother who now lives overseas. I kick myself every time I think about that experience. The ONLY upshot is that the papers were a delight to read and my students had clearly worked so hard - but they could have waited another day to get them back.
"The ONLY upshot is that the papers were a delight to read and my students had clearly worked so hard - but they could have waited another day to get them back."
ReplyDeleteI've never had student papers like this, so I wouldn't know what this is like. But I betcha those little scoundrels don't remember a thing about the papers now. Sadly, the poster recalls missing out on an experience s/he'll never get back.
what i meant is, i've never had a batch of good papers which led me to believe that my students had done anything other than hack them all out the night before. work hard? at the gym maybe...
ReplyDeleteAnon @ 4:02 AM wrote:
ReplyDelete"....I don't know why some folks on this website automatically assume graduates talking about life after grad school have academic positions. It seems like the reverse would be more likely"
Indeed, a lot of people seem to think academia is the only option. Industry is a lot more fun and a much wider world of opportunity.
But the academy is very narrow-minded; thus, the importance of reports like this one from the MLA regarding the "Job Information List":
http://www.mla.org/pdf/sept_rpt_jil_1011_v2.pdf
That the MLA thinks it is important to compile such a statistical report about its own job listing service is the ultimate example of the academy narrowly contemplating its own navel and failing to see opportunity outside the academy.
Staring with tunnel vision down an ever-narrowing path of career prospects...a major source of stress.
Just thinking about it makes me want to go have another cup of coffee at Starbucks.
"That the MLA thinks it is important to compile such a statistical report about its own job listing service is the ultimate example of the academy narrowly contemplating its own navel and failing to see opportunity outside the academy."
ReplyDeleteI think the first sentence of the MLA doc says it all. It's a PR doc:
"Jobs rose a wee bit!" aka--don't listen to the scamblogs, prospective humanities students! Things are turning around! Go to grad school and staff our shitty introductory classes so departments don't have to force their professors to do the shitwork we prefer to fob off on you!
Here's a more honest take on the MLA JOb INformation List, from one of our very own. The brief video will make everything crystal clear:
ReplyDeletehttp://afteracademe.blogspot.com/2011/09/honey-badger-dont-give-shit-about-mla.html
The experience of grading papers in an Amtrak bathroom reminds me of similar vacations that I have had ruined by grading. I felt a lot of pressure as a teaching assistant to have papers and exams back quickly, but that pressure was always from the professors for whom I was working, and never (in any significant sense) from my hundreds of students
ReplyDeleteThere may be a few students who read my comments, but I am sure that most of them gave them very little thought (if they read them at all). Their concern is almost always with the grade, not with what can be learned from the grading. It seems so pointless.
When I think about it now, it was like factory work, although factory work probably pays better, offers better benefits, and might even be less stressful.
"There may be a few students who read my comments, but I am sure that most of them gave them very little thought (if they read them at all). Their concern is almost always with the grade, not with what can be learned from the grading. It seems so pointless. "
ReplyDeleteIt really is pointless. We make up stories about the value of our work as educators and then we start believing them. After all, look at how undergraduate education changed our lives....oh wait, that's right, look how that ended up. And the best we can hope for as teachers is to have bright, engaged undergrads who fall in love with the material. These folks will go on to waste THEIR lives and money in grad school as well. And so on, and so on, and so on.
Fuck.
Stress? Grading? Honey Badger don't give a shit. Betcha Honey Badger'd come up with a better plan for a stack o' nastyass papers and a bathroom stall, too.
ReplyDeleteWe need to be more creative.
(Anonymous 7:24, thanks!)
7:24 here.
ReplyDelete@ recent PhD
No. Thank YOU. Honey Badger has changed my life. I will be totally channeling HB when I get back in touch with my adviser next week. At this point, if s/he wants to bounce me from the program due to non-progress, it's a favor. I will be running backwards, chasing animals, eating nastyass larva. All fucking day long.
For me, Reason 67 and Reason 68 go hand-in-hand. The star system certainly existed in my English grad program, but it was very flawed, championing pets instead of bright, articulate, original thinkers. (It's probably obvious that I wasn't in the star system, right?) ;) For those of us who aren't in the S.S., there's constant pressure to prove ourselves and at least get a little of the resources from the program and attention from advisors that we need, and yet each attempt to do so is an exercise in futility. I realize now that, even though I had lots to offer in terms of both teaching and research, I was admitted to my grad program to serve as teaching fodder. Meanwhile, those in the S.S. get fellowship after fellowship and avoid much of the labor that the rest of us endure. All the hard work to gain a foothold in the program exacerbates the stress inherent in graduate education. It's a game of loose pool to begin with.
ReplyDelete"I realize now that, even though I had lots to offer in terms of both teaching and research, I was admitted to my grad program to serve as teaching fodder."
ReplyDeleteYes. This.
I had an epiphany the other day about the star system. The department knows there aren't enough jobs. They fund the only ones they think actually have a chance of making it. They know and always knew there wouldn't be enough jobs to employ people like me--we're just "teaching fodder," as you suggest (great term). I was crossing the street when I put all of this together coherently. I stopped right in the middle. Hubby had to grab me by hand to avoid me getting flattened by a truck--or should I say "another truck" after this whole grad school debacle.
dumb blog if you cant get a job why not go to school. at least get some grant money.
ReplyDeleteThe most motivated, engaged students I ever taught in my limited adjunct career were the inmates in my state's Corrections Department. On time for class, reading done, papers written (as well as they were able, anyway). Sigh.
ReplyDelete"sukky said...
ReplyDeletedumb blog if you cant get a job why not go to school. at least get some grant money.
September 23, 2011 6:02 AM"
DO NOT click on "Sukky" to find out who this troglodyte dick is. It's just an advertising page for HBO. great advertising ploy, moron(s).
@ 7:09
I've decided that teaching privileged undergrads is a waste of my time. Since they don't care, why should I? I don't live near any prisons, but I think I'm going to start volunteering with an adult literacy group through the library. It's possible to actually make a difference, it's just that the important stuff doesn't carry any prestige. Good for you.
A few years ago, I began to feel embarrassed that I had spent so much of my life in higher education. What a contrast from the wonder I felt when I was a callow and wide-eyed college student! I suspect that some of that wonder stemmed from an unhealthy sense of self-satisfaction.
ReplyDeleteThis is one of the best reasons of all; the truth behind it cannot be emphasized more. The harassment, academic bullies, and hostile environment one faces in graduate school (as well as other things) takes a toll on your health. It did on mine. I gained weight and now have high blood pressure. I've been gone for nearly 4 months, and while I've dropped some weight, my blood pressure is still high. Before grad school, I always had good blood pressure...
ReplyDeleteThere's also other serious health issues that cane stem from the hostile grad school environment. I used to think having PTSD was overblown and not possible just from being a grad student. Now I can't even go near the university without feeling my blood pressure rise, and feeling overwhelmed and anxious. Sometimes I still have nightmares.
The stress is very real.
In tears now because it looks like I might be dropped as co-author from one of the publications I've been working on. Pushing it in front of my own work and now what do I get?--another reminder of how bad academics suck.
ReplyDeleteThat said, it's almost a relief--I'm trying to decide whether to actually take charge of my life and quit the whole thing. Perhaps this is the sign I've been looking for...
Please don't ignore that high blood pressure. I learned the hard way what kind of damage it can do. If they want to put you on the pills, do exactly what they say, even if it's for the rest of your life. There are generic meds that are cheap and work very well.
ReplyDeleteI'm a STEM grad student, and I will defend the people who think we have it easy. Compared to the humanities folk...yeah, we do.
ReplyDeleteIt's not that we don't get a taste of it, of course. There's the amorphous work that will take over your life if you let it, a culture of overwork and smug condescension, political minefields, groupthink, arbitrary evaluations, etc. These are things that happen when you take a group of smart, ambitious people and lock them in a cage together to fight over limited resources; IME these sorts of things are present on the outside, though at least on the outside people have to pay you fair market value for putting up with it.
But if STEM grad school is a sandwich with moldy lettuce, humanities grad school is a sandwich with moldy dogcrap. Worse, the menu says it's a dogcrap sandwich, and you got it because people you trusted said it was delicious.
I don't regret going to grad school - and I didn't do it straight out of undergrad either. But there are jobs in my field (mostly non-academic), and I can justify most of the work as training. I get paid a living wage, do interesting work with interesting people, and my primary responsibility is to convert Diet Coke into journal articles. There are worse things.
I know this isn't the case for some fields, and I won't tell them they shouldn't whine...though I do wonder why more don't give it the finger and leave. (I've got a second bachelor's in a humanities field, and while I enjoyed the field, I can't imagine it would be worth it.)
"But if STEM grad school is a sandwich with moldy lettuce, humanities grad school is a sandwich with moldy dogcrap. Worse, the menu says it's a dogcrap sandwich, and you got it because people you trusted said it was delicious."
ReplyDeleteI love you, Anon 8:50!!
While this blog makes some good points, i have to say one thing. I am currently in the process of finishing a Masters Thesis, but am having to work retail because i can't get TAship money anymore without technically being enrolled full time.
ReplyDeleteI cannot wait to get back to grad school full time. I thought grad school life was bad till I started working at Walmart full time hours with only part time pay and benefits. Having to get to work 5am one day then staying till 130am the next, standing up all day, dealing with rude customers constantly who expect you to have god like powers. Doing brainless and repetitive work that turns your brain into mush. in retrospect, I love full time grad school life.
Anyone who feels that grad school life sucks, go work full time (with part time pay and benefits) in retail/ food services, you'll see what the real world is like.
Amen to that. I dropped out of college to work retail/fastfood for a year and went running back!
Deletethat is your problem of not getting doing an engineering degree in undergrad.
ReplyDelete@9:39
ReplyDeleteYou'll be doing brainless and repetitive work after you finish your full-time grad school life. It's sad, but true. Grad school is NOT a ticket to a bright and rewarding future. Anyone that tells you otherwise (particularly your research advisor) is lying.
Hey Anon @9:39
ReplyDeleteRetail sucks, and Walmart sucks more. But TAing/adjuncting is the same deal, full time work, for part-time pay and benefits.
Perhaps adjuncting and TAing are preferable to retail, but you don't have to spend up to 10 years "training" for that retail job, whereas for teaching college you do. And you don't even get a pay raise.
Oh, and to add to that (it's 8:32 here), dealing with students is a lot like dealing with customers at the store.
ReplyDeleteI came upon this site by chance since it was linked from an article at another blog that I was reading. I honestly cannot fathom why so many people go to graduate school in general. What makes someone who already finished higher education want to stay in school perpetually and not live an adult life? Most people that I know at 30 are already well established into their careers, have kids, make high salaries. Why would people want to forgo this and just stay in a boring classroom to be an "assistant" to some professor like an child for years on end? With the exception of professional school- and training for a specific occupation-why did you people choose to take this step of endless schooling in your lives?
ReplyDeletehttp://www.theonion.com/articles/find-the-thing-youre-most-passionate-about-then-do,31742/
DeleteTo 8:32
ReplyDeletei never had problems with students like I did with customers. Plus there are scholarships that help with school. Plus, there's a sense of community and ability to have intellectual discussions in school which you don't get in work. Plus you have a set class schedule as a grad student. You don't have to work 5am one day, then stay till 130am the next.
Grad school isn't for everyone, but I rather be around people with whom I can discuss absurdism in theatre than around people who only talk about sports and reality TV.
I didn't realize how much I belonged in Academia till I took a break. Where I'll end up, i'm not sure, but I feel like I belong more than any other place.
I doubt many people would try to tell you that retail is better than academia. It's not. However, to compare it to walmart and maintain that academia is the only other option is to set up a false dichotomy. There are lots of great careers out there that draw smart interesting people, pay a reasonable wage, and provide stimulating work. I don't know where that lies for me, but academia is not it.
ReplyDeleteTo 5:41
ReplyDeleteThose careers are hard to get into unless you had enough foresight to get a business or computer science undergrad degree. Could you list some of those great careers?
Thanks
Well, I must say that Anonymous at September 30, 2011 9:39 PM is making my graduate advisor's point all over again. Life in graduate school does have its perks in comparison to the various struggles one encounters later in life. Working at Walmart is certainly an extreme example of one of those various struggles, and graduate school is clearly a vacation compared to working retail.
ReplyDeleteBut, just because we are working toward (or have already received) a graduate degree, we are not entitled to a life which is free of drudge work and boring repetition. I find grading exams to be just as mind-numbing as doing the dishes. So is balancing the checkbook, mowing the lawn, cleaning up toys after your kids, attending HR training meetings, processing a purchase order, printing UPS shipping labels, etc. You have to do what it takes to put food on the table, no matter where you end up working, and the work is not always going to consist of intellectually stimulating conversation while sipping mochas at Starbucks.
[SIDE NOTE: Some of my fellow STEM folks need to lay off the snarky criticisms of the main audience here...namely, those who choose non-STEM humanities degrees. It's not nice to gloat even though STEM graduate work is an easier ride and often leads to a degree-related job afterwards. Gloating and arrogance are two cherished elixirs among academic types, and you should resist the urge to imbibe of these toxic brews while you are a graduate student. Remember: Unless you land a cushy, insulated, tenured STEM job in academia, you are ultimately going to be working with lots of folks with non-STEM degrees, and there is no sense making enemies of your future co-workers.]
Many of the STEM people end up in Wall Street because it is a rewarding and high paying career, since this is essentially the heart of our economy.
ReplyDelete@1:13pm - I'm in grad school because, in my corner of STEM, there's a vicious glass ceiling for people without the PhD. I thought I could work my way up with a BS, and did in fact reach a mid-level position...then my company went under, and the combination of my title and my BS made me unemployable anywhere else. I was told this to my face, repeatedly. I had to go back down to entry-level scutwork, and had to change fields entirely so I wouldn't be overqualified for the position.
ReplyDeleteNow I've scraped my way back into academia. Who knows what will happen next. But I know my stuff, and now there's at least a fractional chance that I'll be able to make a career of this.
(Yes, I realize that what I'm doing isn't quite economically rational. If this were just about money, I would have gone for the MD or Wall Street. But STEM is, for me, a reasonable compromise between "stuff I like" and "stuff that pays".)
Anon 9:39's comments bring up an important point: sometimes grad school seems like the only good option. Some humanities undergraduates end up in deadend jobs and grad school seems like a way out. There are jobs that are better than retail/dishwashing/waiting tables/etc. for some people and they choose not to look for them or for some reason they are just don't look hard for them. In some cases, there are no such better jobs but I think that's a more rare situation. But the point is that grad school can seem like a way out for people who have always been smart students.
ReplyDeleteYou have to look at it this way though: the money you very likely will waste going to grad school could be better used finding a job somewhere in the country and moving there. It is not a good investment, and while it seems like the best or even the only option, it is not.
STEM Doctor & Anon 4:42,
ReplyDeleteI really hope that Anon 9:39 reads what you both said and thinks hard about grad school. It is not a place to go to find smart people who want to talk about interesting things; that's for book clubs and interest groups. Grad school is training for a difficult, draining job that universities don't even supply or support anymore. (I have lots of really happy friends working in University administration, they get paid more and their position is more stable and they basically get all the same holidays)
Also, there is plenty of horrible drudgery and countless dull people. You can't escape that, just like STEM says. Better off making a living wage and having enough time to find those people. Walmart won't give you that for sure, but academia also will not. Unless all you ever want to do is sit in your office writing and doing research until your eyes bleed, please please please do not go to grad school. Or just get your Masters for fun but for god's sake don't do a PhD.
I think the author should have also added: "Going to graduate school is even more stressful if you were to graduate (with your Masters, Doctorate, etc) and couldn't find a real job (in or outside of academia)." That's my biggest reason right now for not attending graduate school in a 'Media Arts & Science Program...'
ReplyDeleteI was Anon 9:39.
ReplyDeleteThe city I live in supposedly has one of the best economies in America, but all I see are jobs for people with high tech education and experience. If I had been a computer science major I would have been set. BTW, it's hard to make book club meetings on a retail schedule, I've tried.
Just not seeing entry level 9-5 jobs out there. The core problem with education in America is the lack of career training. You leave with a 4 year degree, and they give you no idea how to find a decent job.
"[SIDE NOTE: Some of my fellow STEM folks need to lay off the snarky criticisms of the main audience here...namely, those who choose non-STEM humanities degrees. It's not nice to gloat even though STEM graduate work is an easier ride and often leads to a degree-related job afterwards. Gloating and arrogance are two cherished elixirs among academic types, and you should resist the urge to imbibe of these toxic brews while you are a graduate student. Remember: Unless you land a cushy, insulated, tenured STEM job in academia, you are ultimately going to be working with lots of folks with non-STEM degrees, and there is no sense making enemies of your future co-workers.]"
ReplyDeleteAmen. Thanks, STEM Doc.
@Anon 9:39 and 4:10, there's an element of truth in this: "Just not seeing entry level 9-5 jobs out there. The core problem with education in America is the lack of career training. You leave with a 4 year degree, and they give you no idea how to find a decent job."
ReplyDeleteBut, to underscore your point, it isn't that there aren't entry-level jobs out there -- it's that humanities grads aren't trained to look for them. It isn't your humanities degree per se that's going to get you a job. It's your ability to read and write, plan and communicate, type a memo in Word, show up on time ... Look around for jobs that ask for these types of skills. True, you might end up starting out as the secretary, but aside from the fact that "administrative professional" is a career path in its own right that's open to anyone with a college degree, people in your office would quickly see that you have other things to offer.
When I first graduated from undergrad, I didn't have a clue how to find a "decent" job. Part of it was that I didn't know what I wanted to do. Part of it was that I didn't know where to look. It's the second thing that's key. And you don't always start out at something "decent."
But here's another way of looking at it: While grad school beats Walmart in the short term, neither one nor the other is going to get you anywhere 10 years from now unless you start figuring some things out and weighing your options. Even if you're not going the "office" route right away, consider this: I did a 2-year stint in retail before grad school. Not at Walmart but at a women's clothing chain at the mall that you'd recognize ... I thought it was awful at the time, even when I got promoted to assistant manager. I used to sit in the food court before the store opened reading poetry and wishing I were somewhere else, telling myself I belonged somewhere else.
What opportunities did I miss? For one thing, the company offered full-time employees, which I was, $3000/year for education but ONLY for a degree or certification relevant to promotion within the company. So, to make a long story short, I could have gotten an MBA on the company's dime while earning a full-time salary. But, no, I was drowning myself in poetry instead.
I'm not saying I necessarily regret not going that route, but I didn't even consider it. I turned up my nose at the idea of getting an MBA and/or working my way up in the company. What opportunities are you overlooking? Could you leverage your Walmart experience into a better retail job, at a better company?
Is figuring out how to get on with your life post-humanities BA stressful? Yes, but graduate school isn't the answer. If it's regular hours and a good night's sleep you're after, grad school is forsure not the answer. Ask anyone who's teaching essentially full-time for a very part-time salary while at the same time trying to study for their comprehensive exams or finish their dissertation (that nobody but their committee will ever read) before their funding runs out and they have to face, well, exactly the same thing you're facing: Since there are no academic jobs, you'll end up, after a decade, right back where you are now in terms of figuring out how to find a "decent" nonacademic position. Wouldn't it be that much worse to have a PhD and be working at Walmart?
Might as well just get on with it ...
"Just not seeing entry level 9-5 jobs out there. The core problem with education in America is the lack of career training. You leave with a 4 year degree, and they give you no idea how to find a decent job."
ReplyDeleteThank you, thank you, thank you 4:10! This is the truth and a major problem with the system. When I dove into college, I was under the impression that afterwards I would find better jobs than what I was doing in my family's business, but when I resurfaced, all I could find were jobs that were similar to that. So what was the point of those years and that $$$ -- to do the same type of work I had already been doing???
(And to rub salt in the wound, the school I went to had plenty of rich kids who apparently never knew a hard day's work. I was hoping to get a good education... I wonder if I did, in the "country club" atmosphere in which I studied.)
Another thing you realize too is how you relate to other people socially. If you are highly educated, it can be very hard to dumb yourself down with others who aren't on the same intellectual level. This isn't an elitist type of thing, but honestly, I can only talk about Jersey Shore or what's on TV or current events for so long. So that being said, it can be hard to relate to others when you have all this education, they seem to think everything you have to say is like Neo from the Matrix, and you just are shaking your head thinking, wow, how did I get here.
ReplyDeleteWow I know exactly what you mean
DeleteI also forgot to add about finding a job. I don't know how many times I have heard "you are overqualified". Sometimes it just makes me think that the capitalist structure just wants robots, and us 'overqualified' folk don't really fit that profile.
ReplyDeleteThis article, or list rather, is a great reason why I am not continuing on to my Ph.D after my Masters. I have never, NEVER, been so stressed, sick, and worried beyond reason in my life. I'm pursuing a career as an English professor, and I'm happy staying at the community college teaching level. Why risk 6 to 7 more years of my life for a $15,000 pay increase? Screw it.
ReplyDeleteI agree. It's awful. What makes me upset is that they almost don't want you to pass. And good grades are like "side notes" and nobody really cares. If anybody reads this and has any suggestions on how to study for an enormous 2 years worth of information to memorize comprehensive exam, please help!
DeleteGet over it, grad is that, if you don't have the fiber then don't do it, it couldn't get much worst than that.
ReplyDeletePure and simple. You go to grad school because a bachelors degree is worth absolutely nothing and without a masters you can't get a good job. Grad school is awful. I am making myself sick over all the unneccesary stress.
ReplyDeleteI have an M.S. and it' s been no f*cking help to me whatsoever.
DeleteYes, grad school is hard and yes I AM StRESSED, (childbirth was easier; 3 times). I am 1/2 way through.I finished a 29 page final last night and I have picked my finger nails all the way down. But after coming this far, I would not quit now. I'm also looking into my next program to tackle. So, is it worth it? I think so!
ReplyDeleteReading these comments was very interesting. As I sat, staring at my computer screen when I was supposed to be working on revisions for my dissertation, I googled "why is graduate school so stressful" and wound up here.
ReplyDeleteThe only graduate students I know who are not so terribly stressed that they want to pull out each and every one of the hairs on their head are those who set boundaries like "I won't work more than 60 hours a week" or " I wont work on Saturday or Sunday" or the classic "I don't know how to communicate with the students." They are not as stressed but other grad students stress levels double as we have to pick up the work they do not do.
Funny thing no one ever tells you about academia- It is essentially high school on crack. There is a pecking order, everybody knows it and as a grad student you are at the bottom. You may even be told bluntly that your needs do not matter. Remember, you are but a lowly pawn in academic chess.
My advice to any new grad students would be to get any advisor who cares about you (personally & professionally), don't make yourself sick from work- if other grad student are okay doing the minimum, you can make it work too and get out as quickly as possible.
I often liken the experience of graduate school to an elaborate hazing ritual which strips of the person you were before and molds you into an "academic". Before you sign up, make sure you want to belong to the club.
I´m just gonna leave these here:
ReplyDeletehttp://www.life6109.com/graduate-school/fuck-grad-school
http://www.life6109.com/graduate-school/graduate-school-persuasion-cult
the head of the first year writing department at my SLAC got sort of annoyed with me once for not getting my students' 5 page papers all graded in about a week. There were only 15 papers to grade, but I was also job searching, studying for comps, doing my own work, and writing a conference paper. I got the grading finished in a bit under a week and a half.
ReplyDeleteThat same prof is the advisor for students in the comp/rhet specialty. The 3 students in said specialty have been trying to arrange a meeting with him for 3 weeks. He didn't respond to any of their emails once, and bailed on another set meeting time.
I hate the hypocrisy and sense of entitlement people have when really, all they did was get lucky enough to earn a PhD when cushy jobs were still around.