If you think that going to graduate school will allow you to spend your days in a community of the enlightened, consider the axiom that it is unwise to borrow money that is difficult to repay. To go into debt for a graduate degree in the humanities is to go into debt for a credential that, at best, will qualify you for a job with a relatively low starting salary in an extremely competitive job market. Meanwhile, you will have removed yourself from the job market to pursue this degree, so don’t forget to add up the years that you will have incurred debt when you could have been earning money. But surely people in graduate school would be too smart to finance their educations with debt…
According to
FinAid.org: “The median additional debt [the debt that graduate students pile onto the debt that they acquired as undergraduates] is $25,000 for a Master's degree, $52,000 for a doctoral degree and $79,836 for a professional degree. A quarter of graduate and professional students borrow more than $42,898 for a Master's degree, more than $75,712 for a doctoral degree and more than $118,500 for a professional degree.” This is not intelligent behavior. The smart people are somewhere else.
You make a very good point. Many people in graduate school probably do not think of the money they are "losing" by not being in the job market for a number of years. Even those who are paid as TAs and have tuition waivers typically only make enough (if they are lucky) to get by.
ReplyDeleteMedical and law students pay an arm and a leg for their education, but they are gaining practical experience and know that they will most likely earn salaries that will allow them to pay off debt in a reasonable amount of time. Those in the humanities do not have any sort of guarantee of landing a job that will allow them to pay back debt.
Maybe it's not all about the money? I'd rather spend the rest of my life as a computer programmer than a telephone operator, even if I'd make more money working instead of studying for 5 years.
ReplyDeleteAnd when comparing income you'd of course have to look at one's entire career and calculate the sum. Just looking at the first few years + starting salary doesn't seem very intelligent to me ;)
You don't need a PhD to become a computer programmer.
DeleteIf you're going to grad school to be a computer programmer, you're going to get out and get a job as a computer programmer. If you're going to grad school in the humanities, you're more likely going to end up as "a telephone operator" or an adjunct (which pays less), or maybe you'll just be unemployed. It may not seem like it's about the money when you start out, because you're passionate about your subject and delusional about your future prospects, but it damn sure is about the money when you get to the end and can't find work after all those years you slaved away pursuing the "life of the mind."
ReplyDeleteBad Blog. In this economy, if you are hard working, I mean seriously hard working not cheating your way through a BA or Engineering degree, than you can find fellowships that pay almost as much as entry level positions to continue graduate school.
ReplyDeleteIf by your assumption, the smart ones are not at the graduate schools then they must be working, homeless, supported by the generation before them, or doing nothing, or getting by on a mate's contribution.
1. Workers are cogs and the ones that are still employed are the "cogiest". As by the satisfaction statistics in today's WSJ, "cogism" does not lead to satisfaction.
2. I've been homeless, the only smart thing about being homeless is knowing how to graph your days toward survival when others around you are playing with there Iphones. It builds self determination.
3. I live in Detroit. If my parents had money, they would've moved to Oakland county.
4. I have no choice but to do something, since I already know what the answer is to doing nothing.
5. Generally, I'm good looking but am of shorter stature so there is no female taking care of me like they way they do with taller men which are lighter in ambition and talent but "look good" based on some archetype that went out of existence when aerial weaponry became of use.
Some of us need graduate school as a means to survive right now. It is a lifeline for me, an opportunity to innovate, less stress than working for people with lower ambition than I have, provides enough to bear in the mind the positives of having a roof over my head, etc.
Generally, I'm good looking but am of shorter stature so there is no female taking care of me like they way they do with taller men which are lighter in ambition and talent but "look good" based on some archetype that went out of existence when aerial weaponry became of use.
ReplyDeleteThis is easily the funniest thing I've read today.
"'Generally, I'm good looking but am of shorter stature so there is no female taking care of me like they way they do with taller men which are lighter in ambition and talent but "look good" based on some archetype that went out of existence when aerial weaponry became of use.'
ReplyDeleteThis is easily the funniest thing I've read today."
Ditto.
Putting aside issues of debt and lost income, this reason strikes a chord with me in a more general sense. There was a time when I thought that I was lucky to get into a grad school where I would meet seriously smart people who would force me to rise above my mediocrity. After a while, I realized that we were all pretty mediocre intellects. (I guess that test scores aren't everything.) Grad school has done more to drag me down than lift me up intellectually.
ReplyDelete@anonymous #4- not all jobs require you to be a mindless, miserable cog. It's easier for a smart, hardworking person to find a non-office drone job than for a smart, hardworking PhD to find a non-adjunct job. And if hard work and intelligence aren't enough, the office drone job will offer better pay, benefits, job security, and flexibility than working as an adjunct.
ReplyDeleteThis blog has a serious case of the grass is greener. Ever tried looking for a non-profit job? They are:
ReplyDeletea) super competitive
b) nepotistic
c) pay shit, if they pay at all
d) extremely demanding
AND... really to have a chance at any of these cool "real world" jobs that aren't solely oriented towards making rich people richer, you need a masters or phd.
a phd is hard work, not particularly fun, but... in theory, you do get to study what you are passionate about. would you rather know more than you ever wanted to know about sales force efficiency? people who have all the trappings - good salary and all the material items that goes along with it - often don't feel fulfilled or that their lives are particularly meaningful. there's always a trade-off.
in theory, you do get to study what you are passionate about.
ReplyDeleteThis perhaps is only in theory. It all depends on your departmental policies and such.
In addition to that, I found that the deadlines do not allow students to thoroughly read, research, or analyze what they are studying. I felt smarter when I dropped out because I could actually read an entire book rather than speed read a few chapters and b.s. a paper that I rushed to complete on time.
DeleteHey 100 Reasons, you don't have an About page so I'll say hello here. I think this is a good idea, warning people off of graduate school. As you yourself note, it may not work, but it's still worth a try...
ReplyDeleteI agree in part. There are students who go to school for fear of the "real world," and take on hideous amounts of debt that will make the real world even scarier once they get there. Those people really should just hurry up and get a job that they will enjoy, and not waste their time.
ReplyDeleteBut there are people who go to graduate school because their dream vocation requires a master's degree or higher. Insinuating that all grad students are stupid for trying is idiotic.
Higher Academia isn't there to ensure anyone's dream vocation.
DeleteWorking and being mentored in a chosen field is, why should a person in their twenties be forced to take on debt to work in a certain field?
It seems pretty obvious that if skilled workers in one field are lacking, then the employers/industry should be training them at the employers cost.
But the truth is we know in the back of our minds what this is about: debt slavery, a college educated surf with tens of thousands of dollars in debt is more likely to eat crap to not buck an over bearing employer. And if they do, what would the employer care? There is always another sucker fresh out of school who might work harder than the current dissatisfied employee.
"It seems pretty obvious that if skilled workers in one field are lacking, then the employers/industry should be training them at the employers cost." I think you've been out of the so-called private sector a bit too long. Employers long ago stopped any on-the-job training. No, they just gripe about our education system being poor and how they can't find qualified people while they post jobs for PRECISELY the skill set they think they need which doesn't actually turn out to be the skill set that they need (since the job description is written by someone who doesn't actually know the job and besides technology is moving so quickly that particular skills are obsolete between the time the job opened up and the time it's filled) and all of this so they can bribe Congress into allowing more low-wage schlebs from overseas to take our jobs.
DeleteSo far you have given a very good reason not to incur debt by going to graduate school. But that's not a reason not to go to graduate school on fellowship. If you can get into a highly ranked program that gives secure funding and has a good job placement record, then go if you want to. In that case, you'd be making a mistake to let thoughts about the money you might earn doing something else for a few years deter you from what you want to do. For that matter, even if you're not sure whether you want to do it, I don't think it's crazy to go if you get into such a program. Students in top PhD programs in the humanities live quite well on the funding they get these days. I knew some who saved money, and many others (including myself) who had plenty left over after rent and food to waste on a lot of drinking. Those who aren't committed after a couple years usually drop out and get on just fine with their lives.
ReplyDeleteBut I agree: don't go into debt to earn a PhD in the humanities - at least not unless the debt is very small, and you can't imagine doing anything else.
Very much agreed! Plus, even if you get a masters and realize that you don't want to go on to a PhD, you can always get jobs in arts administration, high/grammar school education, etc.
DeleteThere are a number of topics in American society that make we want to pile my life into boxes and move to Europe. Education and healthcare are two of them. As an electrical engineer with graduate school experience, I can say one thing with certainty: no one wants to live in a society filled with people who earned graduate degrees only in programs of study that are perceived to lead to monetary wealth.
ReplyDelete"Don't go into debt to earn a PhD in the humanities." Yes, instead go into debt to earn a PhD in electrical engineering, even if you have no real interest in electrical engineering, just because that means someone will always be willing to pay you $200k as a Chief Technical Officer. By all means, spend years in a program of study on a topic about which you aren't passionate just because it means you'll be paid well in your career.
I chose engineering because I enjoyed the material and continue to be curious about it. Please, please, please - follow your passion in education, go as far as it can take you. Money is always a real consideration with respect to the cost of your education. But don't let it drive the decision.
We have enough unhappy highly educated people in American society. Don't be afraid to follow your passion, regardless of the field of study. Being happy and enjoying what you do is usually the best path to achieving the financial income you need.
Thank you. I am only a few posts into this blog and I will not be recommending it to anyone. The negative and dangerously generalizing attitude here is astounding. Is graduate school a difficult choice? Of course. Do many students, particularly at the Masters level do it not understanding their choice or options? Yes. But is also a highly personal one which varies a TREMENDOUS amount from field to field. In the end, the only real advice to give someone considering graduate school is to take a deep look at themselves and what they want in life on many different levels, take some time off to gain experience and reflect and then do what they think is right for them.
DeleteI'm an American getting my PhD in Germany (in the sciences). Do not come to Europe if you want a good academic experience. Most professors see the number of students they "advise" as a badge of honor and so lab groups here are often 20-40 students. There is also a strong culture of mediocrity to overcome. The most ambitious and hard-working Europeans generally go to grad school in the US, so what you're left with are really the dregs of grad student society. There is not a day that I don't regret having come here (I left a top-ranked program in the US to move with my German boyfriend when he got a professorship here; we are looking to move back to the US, but good luck finding academic jobs for both of us).
ReplyDeleteIt's not intelligent behavior to finance your education with debt, when there is no other way to get said education? You claim that no smart person would go into debt in order to go to school. By this logic, 80% of the student bodies of MIT and Harvard are idiots. The smart people are the ones who care so much about their chosen field that they will incur any expense to get the chance to practice it. Money isn't everything, and it's not a mark of intelligence to pursue it above all else.
ReplyDeleteI want to say that just as I was falling into a dark pit of despair and doubt at my decision to pursue graduate school, I came upon your post. Thank you for this reminder that not many people, including myself, realize.
DeleteI stumbled upon your blog, and while you do make some good points, I'm still not convinced. I was recently accepted into an MA program which gives me a full tuition waiver as well as a sizeable stipend- certainly enough to offset the cost of living until I graduate.
ReplyDeleteAll in all, I've gotten a very good deal, plus a TA position to further pad out my resume and give me teaching experience. Take all this into consideration and add the fact that I have absolutely no student loans...I think I'd be stupid NOT to take it!
The "opportunity cost" of attending grad school cannot be discounted. After 10 years of grad school, once you try and fail multiple times to get a job in your field, you will likely be going for the kind of entry-level position in the "real world" workforce that all your peers did when you all graduated from college. So, for example, if you "give up" your search and decide to teach high school, you're taking a job your friends in college got right away with their bachelor's degrees. The difference is, they've been amassing real pay for 10 years, and had the opportunity to do things like... buy a house! Build equity! Save for retirement! Go on vacations! Whereas you/me/all of us have spent 10 years making very little or going into debt. Why, why, why would we waste 10 years of our lives and hundreds of thousands of dollars for a degree that will probably not get us a position ANY BETTER than one we could have gotten with a BA or MA? It's SIMPLY ABSURD. And we will be paying for it for the rest of our lives. It might not seem like such a big deal when you're 23 or 25, but when you hit your 30s and have (or want to have) a family, it's a bitter pill. I wish I'd had access to a site like this and wish people had tried harder to dissuade me from pursuing grad studies.
ReplyDeleteI could not have gotten a decent job without an MA in economics. A BA just wasn't good enough. Grad school was simply a necessity.
ReplyDeleteThe unwise people use their extra student loans proceed to blow it on bars, clubs etc.
ReplyDeleteThe wise people use their extra student loan money to invest in the stock market.
In the second case, there is no "opportunity cost" of going to grad school, since you will have as much assets as the one who work straight out of undergrad.
I second the claim that it's foolish to go into debt to get a graduate degree. As one who holds a PhD in mathematics, I am also stuck with nearly $100,000 of debt and no passion to teach as a professor.
ReplyDeleteA commenter above spoke about passion for the subject. I have passion for mathematics! But I currently work as a software engineer, barely making enough money to pay the bills, with no time to work on my passion, and with my graduate loans growing in the background at about $1200 per year.
Am I glad I learned so much mathematics? You betcha! But I probably should have stopped at a Master's and pursued something else...it was around then that I discovered that I didn't like teaching.
For all those who say you shouldn't take debt into consideration, and just pursue education full speed ahead: you are a bunch of idiots and fools! Debt is very despiriting, and so is working just enough to pay the bills. If furthering your education means going into massive debt, followed by a very uncertain job market, you are stupid if you don't take that into MAJOR consideration when deciding whether or not to go into grad school.
Oh, and if you ever find yourself not liking grad school--or even before you start--you should ask yourself "What will I do if I don't like it, or if things don't work out as planned?" When I decided I didn't want to be a professor, I still pursued my degree without giving this question much thought: I was too busy to think about it! It's been a rocky three and a half years since graduation, precisely because I didn't have a good answer to this question.
And I still don't have a good answer. Which is why I despise that debt even more!
First off..As a graduate student in a top 15 nationally ranked program, this point or entire blog really doesn't hold up in my opinion. First off most GOOD or Top 50 graduate programs allow field practicum to interact and work among some of the most distinguished instructors/researchers in ones intended field of practice (So you will have job experience). Now who you think is going to get the job first, Joe Blow whos slaves 9 to 5 at a shitty job where his starting salary depends on no experience at all besides one senior year internship or The so called fool who took the easy way out as you may suggest and is offer a stipend to work over seas in Germany (I will be taking SW771 International studies on the practicum of improving international societies abroad in May!) I am attending a graduate program only trumped by USC, Columbia and UNC, and for each semester I am giving the opportunity to work among some of the most highly regarded people in my field. Not to mention the fact that my department offers a wide range of scholarships for my intended practice. Please, I'm from the quote on quote hood, the first in my family to graduate with honors and graduate PERIOD so I am DAMN proud to be in grad school! I have not met someone with a masters degree to tell me otherwise. As a former college football player, if you want to further your education, I say do it! I respect your opinion to as well, for we live in a country where freedom is always taking for granted, you should always speak your mind and allow freedom of speech .Your institution/grades/scholarships/ and department all play a part to deciding if grad school is for you. AND IF YOUR GOING TO DELAY YOUR ADULTHOOD, THEN YEAH GRAD SCHOOL IS NOT FOR YOU! BUT IF YOUR GOING to BETTER YOURSELF AND YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR PROFESSION THEN GO TO GRAD SCHOOL!
ReplyDeleteThis is me speaking my mind.
DeleteYou can't even write a coherent paragraph with proper spelling and grammar, and you're not only a university graduate but are going to grad school?
In the words of the Cisco Kid, "Are we black?"
LOL at the last Anonymous comment. I understand your pride as you are the one with the weight of your family history on your shoulders.
ReplyDeleteBest wishes and happy reading!
@6:23
ReplyDeleteI don't think you've understood the blogger's point or the point of this blog at all, and your attack makes no sense since you state, "you should always speak your mind and allow freedom of speech."
Be sure to visit your prestigious university's writing center before you graduate--your writing is atrocious for someone so proud of his education...
Apparently, you went to the grad school Bumbfucknowhere, Indiana so yeah not a lot of intelligence in Indiana.
ReplyDelete"But I agree: don't go into debt to earn a PhD in the humanities - at least not unless the debt is very small, and you can't imagine doing anything else."
ReplyDeleteThis easily summarizes my attitude towards grad school. :)
My point of view on this is that the cost of going to graduate school will depend on the personal preferance of the person. Only the individual in question knows the cost of the forgone alternative for the item in question. Is getting a chance to study your subject matter worth the cost of whatever your next highest alternative is? Is the money invested in this venture worth the cost of forgoing your next best alternative?
ReplyDeleteIf you don't go to grad school, you'll have so much more time to write moronic blogs like this one. -A Grad School Educated Idiot
ReplyDeleteI bet this blog has had a lot more impact on the world than your dissertation had.
DeleteIf you don't go to grad school, you'll have so much more time to write moronic blogs like this one. -A Grad School Educated Idiot
ReplyDeleteYESSSS!!!!!!!!
Particularly in the Humanities, if it's interest in or passion for a given subject area drawing you to a masters or phd, why not simply study it on your own? Why pay a university and take years out of your life for a piece of paper? I've had four articles published from my own freelance research, purely out of my own interest. I work half the year and spend the rest writing and travelling. Don't get sucked into a system of debt and ruthless competition with colleagues over something so meaningless.
ReplyDeleteThat sounds like a fascinating solution. Would you mind posting a link to your work?
Delete-DK
" I've had four articles published from my own freelance research, purely out of my own interest."
ReplyDeleteDid you publish in academic, literary, or popular markets? Easier for humanities folks--STEM and social science folks would have a much harder time "flying solo."
"Did you publish in academic, literary, or popular markets? Easier for humanities folks--STEM and social science folks would have a much harder time "flying solo."
ReplyDeleteYes if you register a LLC or a non-profit org and publish under that name.
Heck, there are engineering conferences that publish any paper, including machine-generated ones. Just group up with some of your drinking buddies and publish your "findings" there, and there you go the extra fat for your CV.
Try telling that to everyone in graduate school or law school. They are too busy stroking their own egos. In my law school class the other day, for instance, one student said, regarding the normal population: "They don't think like us law students." Even the professor laughed at that. But the students, they believed it. They think they are the cream of the intellectual crop. I blushed when that kid said that, for all of us.
ReplyDeleteEr... unless you get funding! Then you're being paid to get training, a degree and to do something you genuinely love and are passionate about. I wonder how many office block ninetilfivers can say that? My partner is currently on funding that would equate to around £26,000 as a real-world gross salary; realistically he could only ever match that in his first few years out of university... so I guess the stupid are elsewhere
ReplyDeletesoo... according to the premise of this blog (basically "don't go to grad school because you will leave in debt and you could start working years earlier"), why get an undergrad degree? Or go to high-school for that matter? There are plenty of positions for teenagers. Let's just all start working at 16, gain loads more time to make money and forget about higher education, intellectual development and all that nonsense! O.o
ReplyDeletewhy get an undergrad degree? Or go to high-school for that matter? Precisely!
DeleteWe have forgot that going to school was not always mandatory for children. You don't need to go to a formal school to gain intellectual development and that is true for anyone from children to adults in post secondary education. Books are always available at the Free Library. Education has become institutionalized and it leads people to think that just because someone has spent years and thousands of dollars on a school they are so intelligent but it's not true.
Anonymous said...
ReplyDelete" I'm an American getting my PhD in Germany (in the sciences). Do not come to Europe if you want a good academic experience. Most professors see the number of students they "advise" as a badge of honor and so lab groups here are often 20-40 students."
-it is the same in America, the tenure system here rewards quantity not quality in papers, classes, and graduated students
http://ohiouniversityplagiarism.blogspot.com/
I don't know how common my situation is, but the FinAid numbers could be misleading because of people like me. I'm a Ph.D. student, have a tuition waiver and a stipend I can live off of, and had the same as an M.A. student. But I got out government loans both as an M.A. student and a Ph.D. student, not because I needed them to pay the bills, but to invest. If I'm going to be in school for 8 years or so, and can get loans that will not accrue interest and don't require repayment while I'm in school, I might as well make some money with those loans.
ReplyDeleteI just found this blog. I wish it was around 10 years ago when I started my postgraduate career. I wish someone with experience would start a blog about HOW to make a switch to something else - I have a PhD from an R1 British university - we don't use the same terminology but it equates. I have a crappy job in a city I don't like, miles away from anything, miles away from my family, I keep putting off children because I am not settled here so my clock ticks away and I have no idea how to leave a crappy salary that at least provides us (my husband also has a Phd in the same discipline from the same university) with food and health care.
ReplyDeleteIf I could afford it I would do a MA in something useful and get a job somewhere I want to live.
There are a lot of blogs out there these days giving great advice. I urge you to listen to these pages.
Heres a good reason to add to the blog: It can make you hate something you otherwise loved.
ReplyDeleteSay for instance you get a ba in art history, you graduate top of your program, your professors love you, you get to travel abroad, you write a senior thesis, etc. Obviously you should go to graduate school right? You are good at this shit, you enjoy it, people like your work. You are bound to succeed right? Wrong, for various reasons from departmental politics to financial problems to simply not being cut out for the competitive and often rather soul-crushing experience of having been told for years you are brilliant and then having people rip your every written word to shreds, you may fail at graduate school no matter how amazing you were at the same subject in undergrad. Graduate school is an entirely different thing. Sometimes if you really love something, and you want to continue to love it, you have to be realistic about it. Realize that, though you may never get to make a career out of your love for art, maybe the day after graduation is the day to walk away. To be happy that you had the chance to essentially "waste" (in monetary/career/etc terms, not in life experience) 4 years already on something you love. Look back with fondness and go out and get a tech degree in dental hygiene or something that will actually make you some money, not make you hate something you once loved, save you lots of time and heart ache and maybe even make you enough money that someday you can revisit those things you love, retire and be a docent at a museum, travel, collect, etc....
Theres my very personal two cents
Sarah, I completely agree. I think there's a lot to be said for going where you're needed rather than where you think you should be. If you're brilliant and destined for great things, I think you'll find ways to blossom where you're planted. Of course my theorizing may only apply to those who think they need to keep going to school in order to fully realize their potential.
Deletethe blog probably gives good advice, but for another perspective, im a grad student (in science), i make close to $40,000 per year with a fellowship, i don't work too much, i have tons of time for friends, i meet lots of people, i travel for ~2 months each year, and i love what i do. when i graduate i can get a job doing tons of different things. my point is, grad school is not always bad. for some people it can be really good. in the humanities, i think its probably much worse, but in science its really cool. the biggest problems i see around me are: people work too much, people date other grad students (2 body problem), and some social things. but in general, these are things you can directly control
ReplyDeleteThis is an exceptional case. I am a grad student in the humanities, and no one in our department, even those on fellowship, make half that much. Basically, I'm learning that this is not the era to go for a PhD in the humanities unless you are a prodigious scholar who goes to a prestigious university AND willing to take a huge risk.
DeleteSo by your estimation buying a house is stupid. Because you have to go into debt to buy a house. I think most people who go into debt for college/grad school see it like buying a house, its an investment that usually pays off. Now just like buying a house everybody is not guaranteed to make a profit.
ReplyDeleteA house is much better than a degree. For one, you can live in a house. For another, you can always rent the house or take in boarders. At the worst you can walk away and let the lender take the house, and wipe out your debt through bankruptcy. Can't do that with student loans.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what I should've done: I am in a accelerated 1-year MA program at one of the nation's top institutions. I very smart, a decent performer, but I have and continue to be chronically indecisive. I will have a total of about $80k at the end of this joke of a program, though I will have a well-recognized MA in the Social Sciences. Almost every career I have ever considered has at the end of the day appeared to me exceedingly dreary (and before you cry "trust fund" kid, let me add that I come from welfare, and am the only one of four children to graduate high school, let alone college). Obviously, I think I have attitude/emotional issues preventing me from ever believing anything will bring me a measure of satisfaction or long-term enjoyment. But, it was go into this program, or "waste" another year doing dead-end work. What should I have done, my fellow grad students?
ReplyDeletePardon the numerous typos, I just got back from a run, and clearly my mind is a bit off-kilter.
ReplyDeleteHonestly the decision to go to graduate school really depends on the goals of the student. Some fields like Law, Medicine, and even social work, counseling, and teaching require a graduate degree for entry. If your passion is located in one of these disciplines (but you have to be passionate!), then by all means go to graduate school! In the harder sciences, the barrier for entry for a lot of jobs in industry (and of course academia) is a PhD, but then the job market really opens up and most PhD programs in the sciences are fully funded(however just having your masters is generally useless). Now I understand this blog is targeted towards the humanities. In that case, unless you REALLY want to be a professor, and have an incredible amount of luck to nab a tenure track spot, then all you're really getting out of grad school is a healthy dose of ego boost and quite a bit of debt. The bottom line is that grad school isn't always a bad idea...but sometimes it really is.
ReplyDeleteWhy don't people here understand the difference between professional school and graduate school?? "Fields like Law, Medicine, and even social work, counseling, and teaching" are professions. You train for them in professional school, not grad school. All these folks who keep talking about how they went to grad school for two years, or their employers paid for grad school are idiots.
DeleteIdiots because they got their employers to pay for graduate school? So let's review their stupidity: 1) they have jobs. 2) they have no student debt.
DeleteJust out of curiosity, do you treat everyone so poorly? Calling them idiots and so forth?
How's that diss on meaningless obfuscation of critical wankery going? Here's a tip: if you haven't mentioned Foucalt at least 37 times in the first paragraph, you're going to have rough time of it when defense time rolls around in about 15 years. You idiot.
I think "idiots" was in reference to people making comments saying that their employers sent them to "grad school," when they actually mean "professional school," which is not the subject of this blog, and because they are basing their arguments on that mistake.
DeleteHonestly the decision to go to graduate school really depends on the goals of the student.
Delete^ nailed it.
Never go to college. It's better to get a job. If you get a minimum wage job you can make $15,000 a year. Assuming constant dollars after four or five years you would have $60,000 in earnings as opposed to 60K in debt...and a worthless BA degree.
ReplyDeleteThe thing is people don't want to be stuck in those crappy jobs.
DeleteI used to work at Sonic Drive-In when I was 19-20. My manager was only 27, he made decent money (I think in the 40K range) and got some profit share. Just through sheer attrition, you'd have to be a really sucky worker not to be managing a store after 6-8 years.
I could have been a manager at Wal-Mart, worked there almost 4 years, they were talking about moving me up. I quit instead. Pretty good career progression - cashier 3 yrs, supervisor 1 year - they were going to move me up to spend 5-7 years as an asst. manager, move up to assoc. or co-manager after that. Work the politics and after 20 years with the company you should expect to manage a store, make $150K+ plus profit share (store managers at Walmart get HUGE profit share, an extra $100K in their pockets easy).
But not all of us want to work at a shitty job our whole lives.
Hypothetically, a HS grad can be better off at retirement than a college grad.
Delete- HS grad earns lower average lifetime wages. But he can start investing earlier, and has no student loans to pay off. Let's assume a lifetime average wage of $30k, investing 10% of it each year (at an average of 10% annual growth) until retirement. That's about $2.3 million (18-62 years old).
- College grad earns higher average lifetime wages. But he has loans and can't start investing until he's 30. Let's assume $50,000 average annual salary. 10% of which is invested from 30-62. That's only about $1.5 million.
Yes, but how many high school grads do you know are that savvy? I taught high school for years, maybe .05% of them were even capable of that kind of forward thinking at age 17.
DeleteAlso, if we could all earn 10% annual growth on our investments, we'd be enjoying our millions now. 10% per year is quite a pipe dream.
>I taught high school for years, maybe .05% of them were even capable of that kind of forward thinking at age 17
DeleteFair point. But isn't one of the responsibilities of teachers pointing students in the right direction?
>10% per year is quite a pipe dream.
It's only a "dream" to people like you who don't know the first thing about investing yet feel qualified to expound on the subject. From 1980-2010, the S&P 500 has grown by an average of a shade under 10% per year. Some years its up 40%, other years it's down 20% ... but an _average_ of 10% annual growth is very realistic over the long-term. Here are a few other funds with 10% or better average growth over a long period:
http://www.thestreet.com/story/10385337/1/best-performing-funds-over-the-past-20-years.html
Hey there, You have done a fantastic job. I will certainly digg it and personally suggest to my friends. I am confident they'll be benefited from this website.
ReplyDeleteRegards,
J.H
While I can understand wanting to call attention to non-employable graduate degrees (humanities is the example), you forget to think of those programs which are employable. I am about to enter a PhD program for geology. Not only do I have a full tuition wavier, I have a stipend, and geologists have a near 0% unemployment rate. In geology hose who earn a MS or PhD have get paid more, have more employment options, and are more likely to move up. The problem isn't the debt students are taking out for graduate school, it's their poor major choices in their undergraduate careers which sets the stage. If you earn a BS in German or Russian studies, what kind of job do you expect to get anyway?
ReplyDelete1) College professor (language, literature, linguistics)
Delete2) High-school teacher (language)
3) Translator (business/government/literary)
4) Social worker (for minority populations)
5) Teacher of English as second language (in USA or abroad)
6) Museum employee
7) International policy advisor (business/government)
To name a few. Many of these you can do right out of school with a BA, some require or would be benefitted by an MA (not necessarily in the same field), and some (professor) would require a PhD, which I do not recommend AT ALL. But the others are sound career prospects that are growing at a great pace due to international commerce and the changing face of global politics.
The author of this blog, who is not surprisingly anonymous, makes some valid points but overall exaggerates many more. The fact is that many professions in the US today are in a crisis: Law, teaching, medicine, etc. etc. Doctors are leaving the medical practice in droves, and there are far to many lawyers for the jobs available to them. A phD in the humanities is therefore hardly an exception. It is difficlt, but can also be rewarding in at least 100 ways. I would not waste my time creating a blog to explore those 100 ways however, because ultimately, this blog is the product of bitterness. The anonymous author clearly could not hack the Ph.D process or the profession thereafter, and quit/dropped-out/failed. He now has spent countless hours producing this blog - essentially a symbol of that failure. He must be depressed, haunted, embittered at his collegues who succeeded where he failed, and now this is basically a desperate attempt to "get even" by demeaning the profession with what amounts to sweeping generalizations, and innacuracies, condescendingly (and smugly) written by somewhat who just could not compete. This blog is the result of a life failure. It should be read heavily salted, if at all. To everyone else, pursue your passion, work hard, and life will be rewarding. Don't become a pathetic blog "writer." Don't let your failure become you!
ReplyDeleteThank you for the laugh, David. This response serves to underscore the plethora of narrow minded people in academia. It's not surprising that an academic would not understand why someone could dedicate time to an activity other than their research, such as a blog. Readers should thank David for stepping forward as a shining example of "Dr. I Drank the Academic Kool-Aid"/ "Dr. Extremely Bitter that Anyone Would Leave the Academy...AND WRITE ABOUT IT!" Here, David proves that many academics mistake their profession for a cult. Thank you. Now please go into your office and stay there. Forever.
DeleteBy the way, I am happy Ph.D. student in a top social sciences program. I only wish there were more students and professors who were able to acknowledge the negatives as well as the positives of academic life. There are more than a few creeps like David slithering around, being miserable and trying to make everyone else miserable too. Don't let them get you down.
I went to grad school in Mathematics on a teaching assistanceship with a tuition waver; direct cost: nil. While there was an opportunity cost, and while I did not reach my goal of becoming a college professor, my coursework and research *DID* prepare me for my eventual career in software development *MUCH* better than my BS in Math & Physics had.
ReplyDeleteOn the whole grad school was a big win for me. But I will concede that it was a hell of a wild ride that, in the end, deposited me far away from where I thought I had wanted to be.
Scholarship, scholarship, and scholarship.
ReplyDeleteDon't go to Graduate School unless someone pay it.
Couldn't agree more - let someone else get the check, and learn yer ass off some material you love.
DeleteI can relate to this post.
ReplyDeleteOf all of the people to come out of my doctoral program, the only two people that ended up landing tenure-track jobs were about the last two I would have ever imagined would. Each were nice enough but they were about the most anti-social, weird people in the program. Terrible at teaching and workign with students. They also happened to be the most dogmatic when it came to their scholarship. Their work was a rehashing of what had been already done in the field for he past decade - nothing really new to contribute. And one of them had writing at was completely indecipherable jargon. And I considered myself to be a theory head at the time.
As for the rest of the people in the program - they went off to work in government, teaching in other countries, and who knows what else. The few in the group that I was sure would have moved into academic positions lasted the least time teaching as adjuncts.
In science and engineering, go to graduate school only if you get fully funded. After all, you are going to conduct research that will benefit your principal investigator and the univsersity as an institution. It also means that the university and department think that your work is of some value (at least of minimal value).
ReplyDeleteI am not competent to judge the situation in humanities and social sciences.
It seems appropriate to post a link to a TIME Magazine article here.
ReplyDelete"Highly Educated Have Biggest Debt Problems"
by Dan Kadlec
http://business.time.com/2012/10/25/highly-educated-have-biggest-debt-problems/
I found out (the hard way) that education is an industry. It's really that simple, in most cases. The education industry thrives on the ancient notion that college and post grad study is the ticket to personal happiness and financial success.
ReplyDeleteIn some ways it's true. In most ways, it simply isn't.
Do not generalize that pursuing higher education is not worth it. Some will be successful and others will not but even they will find something to do with the education they have acquired.
ReplyDeleteGraduate school in humanities may be delusional, but I've worked in the corporate world and I honestly don't know how you can fake your way through the day pretending to be interested in selling [fill in the blank] to [who gives a shit]. I understand having to make a living to pay for home, kids, but why is it such a stretch to want off that hamster wheel promoting accounting software for a couple years, and take a chance on a life of the mind?
ReplyDeletei think mediocrity can be found in grad school as easily as it can be found any where else. so if intellectual satisfaction is your top reason for grad school, then might as well look for the BEST school. an academic insitution where critical thinking is rewarded and recognized by peers and profs.
ReplyDeleteand even if one borrows money for his/ her tuition fee, so what? a masters degree, no matter how you look at it, is still worthy investment. the ideal is to be employed during gradschool to be financially independent, and scout for schools that have good value for money.
apparently, some overeducated folks have forgotten about the exponential function. So, let us explain:
ReplyDelete1) suppose that most PhDs have been successfully indoctrinated to pursue the ALMIGHTY ACADEMIC CAREER, the ONE AND ONLY PATH TO SALVATION. That is, they will pursue, at any cost, jobs as professors, otherwise they will think of themselves as "failures"
2) suppose, also, that a professor produces, say, 5 PhDs, and each one of them produces 5 new PhDs, and each of these produces 5 others, and so on.
Now, what happens? Combine it with the fact "education" may very well brainwash people, and you get all this psychological disaster. Someone should explain prospective grad students about all this.
Many of you, given your skills, are just wasting your lifetime, when at the same time you could be having a much happier, fulfilling existence on this planet.
Now, we're sure you are all very intelligent. However, the real question is: how wise are you?
for god's sake, take responsibility for your life!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I think this depends on your field. In some fields you will not get a job unless you get a masters degree, so you either have to go to graduate school or pursue a different career.
ReplyDeleteI was in grad school for 5 years in the late 90's. The second most degrading experience of my life. Got two masters degrees, no PhD.
ReplyDeleteI wish this blog had been around then, but I wouldn't have listened to it, as I was too arrogant then. The best thing good about grad school is that it took away my arrogance.
I learned that the worst character trait in the world is arrogance and that universities are filled with the most arrogant people in the world.
Everything this blog says is the truth about grad school, as I saw it.