If you think that going to graduate school will allow you to spend your days in a community of the enlightened, consider the axiom that it is unwise to borrow money that is difficult to repay. To go into debt for a graduate degree in the humanities is to go into debt for a credential that, at best, will qualify you for a job with a relatively low starting salary in an extremely competitive job market. Meanwhile, you will have removed yourself from the job market to pursue this degree, so don’t forget to add up the years that you will have incurred debt when you could have been earning money. But surely people in graduate school would be too smart to finance their educations with debt…
According to
FinAid.org: “The median additional debt [the debt that graduate students pile onto the debt that they acquired as undergraduates] is $25,000 for a Master's degree, $52,000 for a doctoral degree and $79,836 for a professional degree. A quarter of graduate and professional students borrow more than $42,898 for a Master's degree, more than $75,712 for a doctoral degree and more than $118,500 for a professional degree.” This is not intelligent behavior. The smart people are somewhere else.
You make a very good point. Many people in graduate school probably do not think of the money they are "losing" by not being in the job market for a number of years. Even those who are paid as TAs and have tuition waivers typically only make enough (if they are lucky) to get by.
ReplyDeleteMedical and law students pay an arm and a leg for their education, but they are gaining practical experience and know that they will most likely earn salaries that will allow them to pay off debt in a reasonable amount of time. Those in the humanities do not have any sort of guarantee of landing a job that will allow them to pay back debt.
Maybe it's not all about the money? I'd rather spend the rest of my life as a computer programmer than a telephone operator, even if I'd make more money working instead of studying for 5 years.
ReplyDeleteAnd when comparing income you'd of course have to look at one's entire career and calculate the sum. Just looking at the first few years + starting salary doesn't seem very intelligent to me ;)
If you're going to grad school to be a computer programmer, you're going to get out and get a job as a computer programmer. If you're going to grad school in the humanities, you're more likely going to end up as "a telephone operator" or an adjunct (which pays less), or maybe you'll just be unemployed. It may not seem like it's about the money when you start out, because you're passionate about your subject and delusional about your future prospects, but it damn sure is about the money when you get to the end and can't find work after all those years you slaved away pursuing the "life of the mind."
ReplyDeleteBad Blog. In this economy, if you are hard working, I mean seriously hard working not cheating your way through a BA or Engineering degree, than you can find fellowships that pay almost as much as entry level positions to continue graduate school.
ReplyDeleteIf by your assumption, the smart ones are not at the graduate schools then they must be working, homeless, supported by the generation before them, or doing nothing, or getting by on a mate's contribution.
1. Workers are cogs and the ones that are still employed are the "cogiest". As by the satisfaction statistics in today's WSJ, "cogism" does not lead to satisfaction.
2. I've been homeless, the only smart thing about being homeless is knowing how to graph your days toward survival when others around you are playing with there Iphones. It builds self determination.
3. I live in Detroit. If my parents had money, they would've moved to Oakland county.
4. I have no choice but to do something, since I already know what the answer is to doing nothing.
5. Generally, I'm good looking but am of shorter stature so there is no female taking care of me like they way they do with taller men which are lighter in ambition and talent but "look good" based on some archetype that went out of existence when aerial weaponry became of use.
Some of us need graduate school as a means to survive right now. It is a lifeline for me, an opportunity to innovate, less stress than working for people with lower ambition than I have, provides enough to bear in the mind the positives of having a roof over my head, etc.
Generally, I'm good looking but am of shorter stature so there is no female taking care of me like they way they do with taller men which are lighter in ambition and talent but "look good" based on some archetype that went out of existence when aerial weaponry became of use.
ReplyDeleteThis is easily the funniest thing I've read today.
"'Generally, I'm good looking but am of shorter stature so there is no female taking care of me like they way they do with taller men which are lighter in ambition and talent but "look good" based on some archetype that went out of existence when aerial weaponry became of use.'
ReplyDeleteThis is easily the funniest thing I've read today."
Ditto.
Putting aside issues of debt and lost income, this reason strikes a chord with me in a more general sense. There was a time when I thought that I was lucky to get into a grad school where I would meet seriously smart people who would force me to rise above my mediocrity. After a while, I realized that we were all pretty mediocre intellects. (I guess that test scores aren't everything.) Grad school has done more to drag me down than lift me up intellectually.
ReplyDelete@anonymous #4- not all jobs require you to be a mindless, miserable cog. It's easier for a smart, hardworking person to find a non-office drone job than for a smart, hardworking PhD to find a non-adjunct job. And if hard work and intelligence aren't enough, the office drone job will offer better pay, benefits, job security, and flexibility than working as an adjunct.
ReplyDeleteThis blog has a serious case of the grass is greener. Ever tried looking for a non-profit job? They are:
ReplyDeletea) super competitive
b) nepotistic
c) pay shit, if they pay at all
d) extremely demanding
AND... really to have a chance at any of these cool "real world" jobs that aren't solely oriented towards making rich people richer, you need a masters or phd.
a phd is hard work, not particularly fun, but... in theory, you do get to study what you are passionate about. would you rather know more than you ever wanted to know about sales force efficiency? people who have all the trappings - good salary and all the material items that goes along with it - often don't feel fulfilled or that their lives are particularly meaningful. there's always a trade-off.
in theory, you do get to study what you are passionate about.
ReplyDeleteThis perhaps is only in theory. It all depends on your departmental policies and such.
Hey 100 Reasons, you don't have an About page so I'll say hello here. I think this is a good idea, warning people off of graduate school. As you yourself note, it may not work, but it's still worth a try...
ReplyDeleteI agree in part. There are students who go to school for fear of the "real world," and take on hideous amounts of debt that will make the real world even scarier once they get there. Those people really should just hurry up and get a job that they will enjoy, and not waste their time.
ReplyDeleteBut there are people who go to graduate school because their dream vocation requires a master's degree or higher. Insinuating that all grad students are stupid for trying is idiotic.
So far you have given a very good reason not to incur debt by going to graduate school. But that's not a reason not to go to graduate school on fellowship. If you can get into a highly ranked program that gives secure funding and has a good job placement record, then go if you want to. In that case, you'd be making a mistake to let thoughts about the money you might earn doing something else for a few years deter you from what you want to do. For that matter, even if you're not sure whether you want to do it, I don't think it's crazy to go if you get into such a program. Students in top PhD programs in the humanities live quite well on the funding they get these days. I knew some who saved money, and many others (including myself) who had plenty left over after rent and food to waste on a lot of drinking. Those who aren't committed after a couple years usually drop out and get on just fine with their lives.
ReplyDeleteBut I agree: don't go into debt to earn a PhD in the humanities - at least not unless the debt is very small, and you can't imagine doing anything else.
There are a number of topics in American society that make we want to pile my life into boxes and move to Europe. Education and healthcare are two of them. As an electrical engineer with graduate school experience, I can say one thing with certainty: no one wants to live in a society filled with people who earned graduate degrees only in programs of study that are perceived to lead to monetary wealth.
ReplyDelete"Don't go into debt to earn a PhD in the humanities." Yes, instead go into debt to earn a PhD in electrical engineering, even if you have no real interest in electrical engineering, just because that means someone will always be willing to pay you $200k as a Chief Technical Officer. By all means, spend years in a program of study on a topic about which you aren't passionate just because it means you'll be paid well in your career.
I chose engineering because I enjoyed the material and continue to be curious about it. Please, please, please - follow your passion in education, go as far as it can take you. Money is always a real consideration with respect to the cost of your education. But don't let it drive the decision.
We have enough unhappy highly educated people in American society. Don't be afraid to follow your passion, regardless of the field of study. Being happy and enjoying what you do is usually the best path to achieving the financial income you need.
I'm an American getting my PhD in Germany (in the sciences). Do not come to Europe if you want a good academic experience. Most professors see the number of students they "advise" as a badge of honor and so lab groups here are often 20-40 students. There is also a strong culture of mediocrity to overcome. The most ambitious and hard-working Europeans generally go to grad school in the US, so what you're left with are really the dregs of grad student society. There is not a day that I don't regret having come here (I left a top-ranked program in the US to move with my German boyfriend when he got a professorship here; we are looking to move back to the US, but good luck finding academic jobs for both of us).
ReplyDeleteIt's not intelligent behavior to finance your education with debt, when there is no other way to get said education? You claim that no smart person would go into debt in order to go to school. By this logic, 80% of the student bodies of MIT and Harvard are idiots. The smart people are the ones who care so much about their chosen field that they will incur any expense to get the chance to practice it. Money isn't everything, and it's not a mark of intelligence to pursue it above all else.
ReplyDeleteI stumbled upon your blog, and while you do make some good points, I'm still not convinced. I was recently accepted into an MA program which gives me a full tuition waiver as well as a sizeable stipend- certainly enough to offset the cost of living until I graduate.
ReplyDeleteAll in all, I've gotten a very good deal, plus a TA position to further pad out my resume and give me teaching experience. Take all this into consideration and add the fact that I have absolutely no student loans...I think I'd be stupid NOT to take it!
The "opportunity cost" of attending grad school cannot be discounted. After 10 years of grad school, once you try and fail multiple times to get a job in your field, you will likely be going for the kind of entry-level position in the "real world" workforce that all your peers did when you all graduated from college. So, for example, if you "give up" your search and decide to teach high school, you're taking a job your friends in college got right away with their bachelor's degrees. The difference is, they've been amassing real pay for 10 years, and had the opportunity to do things like... buy a house! Build equity! Save for retirement! Go on vacations! Whereas you/me/all of us have spent 10 years making very little or going into debt. Why, why, why would we waste 10 years of our lives and hundreds of thousands of dollars for a degree that will probably not get us a position ANY BETTER than one we could have gotten with a BA or MA? It's SIMPLY ABSURD. And we will be paying for it for the rest of our lives. It might not seem like such a big deal when you're 23 or 25, but when you hit your 30s and have (or want to have) a family, it's a bitter pill. I wish I'd had access to a site like this and wish people had tried harder to dissuade me from pursuing grad studies.
ReplyDeleteI could not have gotten a decent job without an MA in economics. A BA just wasn't good enough. Grad school was simply a necessity.
ReplyDeleteThe unwise people use their extra student loans proceed to blow it on bars, clubs etc.
ReplyDeleteThe wise people use their extra student loan money to invest in the stock market.
In the second case, there is no "opportunity cost" of going to grad school, since you will have as much assets as the one who work straight out of undergrad.
I second the claim that it's foolish to go into debt to get a graduate degree. As one who holds a PhD in mathematics, I am also stuck with nearly $100,000 of debt and no passion to teach as a professor.
ReplyDeleteA commenter above spoke about passion for the subject. I have passion for mathematics! But I currently work as a software engineer, barely making enough money to pay the bills, with no time to work on my passion, and with my graduate loans growing in the background at about $1200 per year.
Am I glad I learned so much mathematics? You betcha! But I probably should have stopped at a Master's and pursued something else...it was around then that I discovered that I didn't like teaching.
For all those who say you shouldn't take debt into consideration, and just pursue education full speed ahead: you are a bunch of idiots and fools! Debt is very despiriting, and so is working just enough to pay the bills. If furthering your education means going into massive debt, followed by a very uncertain job market, you are stupid if you don't take that into MAJOR consideration when deciding whether or not to go into grad school.
Oh, and if you ever find yourself not liking grad school--or even before you start--you should ask yourself "What will I do if I don't like it, or if things don't work out as planned?" When I decided I didn't want to be a professor, I still pursued my degree without giving this question much thought: I was too busy to think about it! It's been a rocky three and a half years since graduation, precisely because I didn't have a good answer to this question.
And I still don't have a good answer. Which is why I despise that debt even more!
First off..As a graduate student in a top 15 nationally ranked program, this point or entire blog really doesn't hold up in my opinion. First off most GOOD or Top 50 graduate programs allow field practicum to interact and work among some of the most distinguished instructors/researchers in ones intended field of practice (So you will have job experience). Now who you think is going to get the job first, Joe Blow whos slaves 9 to 5 at a shitty job where his starting salary depends on no experience at all besides one senior year internship or The so called fool who took the easy way out as you may suggest and is offer a stipend to work over seas in Germany (I will be taking SW771 International studies on the practicum of improving international societies abroad in May!) I am attending a graduate program only trumped by USC, Columbia and UNC, and for each semester I am giving the opportunity to work among some of the most highly regarded people in my field. Not to mention the fact that my department offers a wide range of scholarships for my intended practice. Please, I'm from the quote on quote hood, the first in my family to graduate with honors and graduate PERIOD so I am DAMN proud to be in grad school! I have not met someone with a masters degree to tell me otherwise. As a former college football player, if you want to further your education, I say do it! I respect your opinion to as well, for we live in a country where freedom is always taking for granted, you should always speak your mind and allow freedom of speech .Your institution/grades/scholarships/ and department all play a part to deciding if grad school is for you. AND IF YOUR GOING TO DELAY YOUR ADULTHOOD, THEN YEAH GRAD SCHOOL IS NOT FOR YOU! BUT IF YOUR GOING to BETTER YOURSELF AND YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF YOUR PROFESSION THEN GO TO GRAD SCHOOL!
ReplyDeleteThis is me speaking my mind.
DeleteYou can't even write a coherent paragraph with proper spelling and grammar, and you're not only a university graduate but are going to grad school?
In the words of the Cisco Kid, "Are we black?"
LOL at the last Anonymous comment. I understand your pride as you are the one with the weight of your family history on your shoulders.
ReplyDeleteBest wishes and happy reading!
@6:23
ReplyDeleteI don't think you've understood the blogger's point or the point of this blog at all, and your attack makes no sense since you state, "you should always speak your mind and allow freedom of speech."
Be sure to visit your prestigious university's writing center before you graduate--your writing is atrocious for someone so proud of his education...
Apparently, you went to the grad school Bumbfucknowhere, Indiana so yeah not a lot of intelligence in Indiana.
ReplyDelete"But I agree: don't go into debt to earn a PhD in the humanities - at least not unless the debt is very small, and you can't imagine doing anything else."
ReplyDeleteThis easily summarizes my attitude towards grad school. :)
My point of view on this is that the cost of going to graduate school will depend on the personal preferance of the person. Only the individual in question knows the cost of the forgone alternative for the item in question. Is getting a chance to study your subject matter worth the cost of whatever your next highest alternative is? Is the money invested in this venture worth the cost of forgoing your next best alternative?
ReplyDeleteIf you don't go to grad school, you'll have so much more time to write moronic blogs like this one. -A Grad School Educated Idiot
ReplyDeleteIf you don't go to grad school, you'll have so much more time to write moronic blogs like this one. -A Grad School Educated Idiot
ReplyDeleteYESSSS!!!!!!!!
Particularly in the Humanities, if it's interest in or passion for a given subject area drawing you to a masters or phd, why not simply study it on your own? Why pay a university and take years out of your life for a piece of paper? I've had four articles published from my own freelance research, purely out of my own interest. I work half the year and spend the rest writing and travelling. Don't get sucked into a system of debt and ruthless competition with colleagues over something so meaningless.
ReplyDelete" I've had four articles published from my own freelance research, purely out of my own interest."
ReplyDeleteDid you publish in academic, literary, or popular markets? Easier for humanities folks--STEM and social science folks would have a much harder time "flying solo."
"Did you publish in academic, literary, or popular markets? Easier for humanities folks--STEM and social science folks would have a much harder time "flying solo."
ReplyDeleteYes if you register a LLC or a non-profit org and publish under that name.
Heck, there are engineering conferences that publish any paper, including machine-generated ones. Just group up with some of your drinking buddies and publish your "findings" there, and there you go the extra fat for your CV.
Try telling that to everyone in graduate school or law school. They are too busy stroking their own egos. In my law school class the other day, for instance, one student said, regarding the normal population: "They don't think like us law students." Even the professor laughed at that. But the students, they believed it. They think they are the cream of the intellectual crop. I blushed when that kid said that, for all of us.
ReplyDeleteEr... unless you get funding! Then you're being paid to get training, a degree and to do something you genuinely love and are passionate about. I wonder how many office block ninetilfivers can say that? My partner is currently on funding that would equate to around £26,000 as a real-world gross salary; realistically he could only ever match that in his first few years out of university... so I guess the stupid are elsewhere
ReplyDeletesoo... according to the premise of this blog (basically "don't go to grad school because you will leave in debt and you could start working years earlier"), why get an undergrad degree? Or go to high-school for that matter? There are plenty of positions for teenagers. Let's just all start working at 16, gain loads more time to make money and forget about higher education, intellectual development and all that nonsense! O.o
ReplyDeleteAnonymous said...
ReplyDelete" I'm an American getting my PhD in Germany (in the sciences). Do not come to Europe if you want a good academic experience. Most professors see the number of students they "advise" as a badge of honor and so lab groups here are often 20-40 students."
-it is the same in America, the tenure system here rewards quantity not quality in papers, classes, and graduated students
http://ohiouniversityplagiarism.blogspot.com/
I don't know how common my situation is, but the FinAid numbers could be misleading because of people like me. I'm a Ph.D. student, have a tuition waiver and a stipend I can live off of, and had the same as an M.A. student. But I got out government loans both as an M.A. student and a Ph.D. student, not because I needed them to pay the bills, but to invest. If I'm going to be in school for 8 years or so, and can get loans that will not accrue interest and don't require repayment while I'm in school, I might as well make some money with those loans.
ReplyDeleteI just found this blog. I wish it was around 10 years ago when I started my postgraduate career. I wish someone with experience would start a blog about HOW to make a switch to something else - I have a PhD from an R1 British university - we don't use the same terminology but it equates. I have a crappy job in a city I don't like, miles away from anything, miles away from my family, I keep putting off children because I am not settled here so my clock ticks away and I have no idea how to leave a crappy salary that at least provides us (my husband also has a Phd in the same discipline from the same university) with food and health care.
ReplyDeleteIf I could afford it I would do a MA in something useful and get a job somewhere I want to live.
There are a lot of blogs out there these days giving great advice. I urge you to listen to these pages.
Heres a good reason to add to the blog: It can make you hate something you otherwise loved.
ReplyDeleteSay for instance you get a ba in art history, you graduate top of your program, your professors love you, you get to travel abroad, you write a senior thesis, etc. Obviously you should go to graduate school right? You are good at this shit, you enjoy it, people like your work. You are bound to succeed right? Wrong, for various reasons from departmental politics to financial problems to simply not being cut out for the competitive and often rather soul-crushing experience of having been told for years you are brilliant and then having people rip your every written word to shreds, you may fail at graduate school no matter how amazing you were at the same subject in undergrad. Graduate school is an entirely different thing. Sometimes if you really love something, and you want to continue to love it, you have to be realistic about it. Realize that, though you may never get to make a career out of your love for art, maybe the day after graduation is the day to walk away. To be happy that you had the chance to essentially "waste" (in monetary/career/etc terms, not in life experience) 4 years already on something you love. Look back with fondness and go out and get a tech degree in dental hygiene or something that will actually make you some money, not make you hate something you once loved, save you lots of time and heart ache and maybe even make you enough money that someday you can revisit those things you love, retire and be a docent at a museum, travel, collect, etc....
Theres my very personal two cents
the blog probably gives good advice, but for another perspective, im a grad student (in science), i make close to $40,000 per year with a fellowship, i don't work too much, i have tons of time for friends, i meet lots of people, i travel for ~2 months each year, and i love what i do. when i graduate i can get a job doing tons of different things. my point is, grad school is not always bad. for some people it can be really good. in the humanities, i think its probably much worse, but in science its really cool. the biggest problems i see around me are: people work too much, people date other grad students (2 body problem), and some social things. but in general, these are things you can directly control
ReplyDeleteSo by your estimation buying a house is stupid. Because you have to go into debt to buy a house. I think most people who go into debt for college/grad school see it like buying a house, its an investment that usually pays off. Now just like buying a house everybody is not guaranteed to make a profit.
ReplyDeleteA house is much better than a degree. For one, you can live in a house. For another, you can always rent the house or take in boarders. At the worst you can walk away and let the lender take the house, and wipe out your debt through bankruptcy. Can't do that with student loans.
ReplyDeleteI wonder what I should've done: I am in a accelerated 1-year MA program at one of the nation's top institutions. I very smart, a decent performer, but I have and continue to be chronically indecisive. I will have a total of about $80k at the end of this joke of a program, though I will have a well-recognized MA in the Social Sciences. Almost every career I have ever considered has at the end of the day appeared to me exceedingly dreary (and before you cry "trust fund" kid, let me add that I come from welfare, and am the only one of four children to graduate high school, let alone college). Obviously, I think I have attitude/emotional issues preventing me from ever believing anything will bring me a measure of satisfaction or long-term enjoyment. But, it was go into this program, or "waste" another year doing dead-end work. What should I have done, my fellow grad students?
ReplyDeletePardon the numerous typos, I just got back from a run, and clearly my mind is a bit off-kilter.
ReplyDelete